BBC Radio 4 World at One Programme, 01 February 2012

Today I was interviewed on Radio 4’s World at One regarding Fred Goodwin being stripped of his knighthood.  We had a lively debate about whether it was right to take his honour away - I think not - and whether other people should have their honours stripped from them. The BBC interviewer pointed out to listeners that the RBS chairman did not receive his knighthood for services to banking and by implication it would not be appropriate for him to be treated in the same manner as Fred Goodwin. I did not have the time to point out that Anthony Blunt received his knighthood for services to art yet was stripped of it for spying. One person that clearly does stand out for scrutiny is Alan Greenspan.

Full transcript is below.

SHAUN LEY: Presenter
Well, Terry Smith is chief executive of Tullett Prebon, a money broker and Fundsmith, a fund management company.  He’s in the City now. Welcome to the programme.
What do you make of the decision to strip Fred Goodwin of his knighthood?

TERRY SMITH: Chief Executive, Tullett Prebon and Fundsmith
I think it’s deplorable.  He’s now been bracketed with traitors, dictators and convicted fraudsters.  If he did something wrong, I’d like to see some proceedings against him – civil or regulatory – and then if he is found to have done something wrong, strip him then but at the moment it looks like a deplorable, political willingness to go along with the sort of morals of a lynch mob.

SHAUN LEY:
But honours are discretionary: there’s no real criteria for rewarding them.  Why should there be any specific criteria for taking them away?  If they’re given by politicians why not allow politicians in response to public opinion, to strip them from those who’ve received them?

TERRY SMITH:
We could do that if people wish.  It would be a break with the way that this has been done in the past, of course – that’s not necessarily a bad thing – but historically, as I say, traitors, dictators and convicted fraudsters have been it so this is a complete change.  If we are going to strip them at discretion for failing though, I would like to suggest to you that the Buckingham Palace probably need a rather large cupboard for returns, because if everybody who fails has to hand back their honours there’ll be a lot.  If we take the specific case of Fred Goodwin, he didn’t make his decisions alone.  The chairman of his board and his board helped him – the chairman, by the way, was Sir Tom McKillop – and he’s in the regulated, highly regulated banking industry where the FSA basically approved what he was doing and that was chaired at the time by Sir Callum McCarthy.  So I presume if we’re going down that route, there will be a lot of other people rather than this lone individual singled out.

SEAN LEY:
I suppose I should say, just in passing, that Tom McKillop’s knighthood was for services to the pharmaceutical industry before he went to banking but I think your point is well made. 

TERRY SMITH:
Who cares what it was for?

SHAUN LEY:
Fair enough and on that basis, are you concerned that this might have an impact on the City, on the attractiveness of Britain for business, particularly this idea perhaps if you fail, which a lot of people do in business, even people who are subsequently successful, you’re going to get punished for it?

TERRY SMITH:
Yes, I think the only way to absolutely guarantee that you won’t fail, is not to try in the first place.  I think it will have a bad effect on people and I think people who either aspire to receive honours for whatever reason in their career, or those who like Stephen Hester, have taken on a job in the public sector who see that something that they were contractually received is taken away for political reasons, must surely think twice about ever taking something on like this again.  But going back to an earlier point: if we are going to take honours away from people because of their mistakes, could I suggest another one that should obviously be called into question?

SHAUN LEY:
Go on, briefly.

TERRY SMITH:
How about the 2002 honorary knighthood given to Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve and the citation was “ for his contribution to global economic stability”.  I’ll believe that people are not on a witch hunt for a single man when they proceed against Alan Greenspan and strip him of his knighthood.

SHAUN LEY:
OK, Mr Terry Smith in the City: thanks very much for joining us.

Comments

[Patrick Lyster-Todd]

I think that Terry Smith makes some good points but that the real issue has been somewhat overlooked - namely the mechanism and criteria required for both nomination and subsequent decision making on senior national awards.

Put simply, I rather despise the thought of people 'who aspire to receive' honours (which would, I'd have thought, have disqualified them in the first instance) and in particular have a deep disquiet for 'captains of industry' (in the broadest sense - you can include senior civil servants, Service chiefs and MP's too) who receive these honours for little more than doing what they're paid to do (often extremely generously), albeit at a level somewhat above the average.

I'd far sooner that our honours system was fundamentally and openly reformed (there have been half-hearted attempts made during the last decade or so by the relevant Select Committee) so that it was stream-lined, focused on citizens who perform great deeds (whether locally or nationally) in their own time and largely at their expense or who give something really special in their workplace through extraordinary dedication and toil. We could also get rid of a whole load of parallel Orders, remove the imperialism and snobbery - and perhaps rename (and focus upon) the Order of the 'British Empire' as the Order of 'Britain' with 4 classes only: Knight or Dame, Commander, Officer and Member.

If either the current or past Government had had the tenancity to do something positive (if controversial) in undertaking this much needed reform then perhaps the likes of 'Fred the Shred' would never have recived the wretched thing in the first place. Did he ever, really, earn it (on top of his remuneration)?

[Terry Smith]

Patrick,

I agree with you. It’s just that you can’t cover every point in a radio or TV interview, or in a letter to a newspaper, as they won’t let you. I despise people who aspire to honours as well-their desire for it should disqualify them. Giving honours to people mid career is also open to obvious problems of the sort which have now surfaced with Fred Goodwin and many of his peers (literally and metaphorically speaking). I would suggest that the honours system should move closer to the process of canonisation-you can only become a saint after you are dead.